From crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!acid Thu Mar 19 22:07:40 EST 1992 Article: 45896 of rec.audio Newsgroups: rec.audio Path: crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!acid From: acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby) Subject: SUMMARY: speakers from $850 to $3300 Message-ID: <1992Mar19.231831.118121@cs.cmu.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 23:18:31 GMT Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon Nntp-Posting-Host: white-lodge.fox.cs.cmu.edu Lines: 763 This is the end of my speaker search. I ended up with the Apogee Centaur Minors (on their way). This is a transcript of my whole experience. Thanks *very* much to everyone who gave me advice. (I think I tried to respond to every message personally.) I am done with it and have made my decision, so I don't need any more mail. ESPECIALLY, don't send me mail of the form "Speaker X is better than the Minors". I don't want to hear it. :-) Here is a transcript of my entire experience, since so many people wanted to read about it. I am not responsible for any problems caused by misinformation in this post. -chris ============================================================================= A little while ago, I posted asking for opinions on the PSB Stratus Gold, the Thiel 2.2, and $2000 speakers in general. At that point, they were the only speakers in that range that I had heard, and I was extremely impressed with both of them. Since then, I have gotten many responses, not all of them strictly sticking to the $2000 point. But that is a good thing, because I decided that I couldn't spend $2000 on speakers. I also got many requests that I post a summary of responses. That follows below, but first I will describe my shopping experience. First, some background. I have the Adcom CD player, the Adcom 400 tuner/preamp, the Adcom 535 power amp, and Magnepan SMGa speakers. I decided that I wanted to upgrade my speakers after getting used to my friend's pair of Spica Angeluses. It had a certain naturalness to the midrange that I really liked. In short, I found it more "listenable" than my small Maggies. Yet, they did not lack detail. After hearing the PSB Stratus Golds a few times in a new classical music shop, they seemed to have the same quality. I decided that I must upgrade. At first, I was thinking $2000, but soon it became clear that I couldn't sleep easy after paying that much money for speakers, especially if I had to buy a new amp for them right away, too. So I decided that $1500 would be tops, or *maybe* a little more if I could still use my 535 (even temporarily would be fine) and if I found a speaker that was really awesome. Living in Pittsburgh, I was somewhat constrained as to the models I could audition. Here is my report. Vandersteen 2Ci ($1195 w/o stands): Yuck. Muddy. Lack of detail. I'm willing to believe that it is a matter of taste, but I really could not live with these. To be honest, I didn't really listen to these again this time; I heard them about a year ago. Vandersteen 3 ($2495): Yuck. Muddy. Lack of detail. I didn't compare directly with the 2Ci (or 2Ce, now), so I don't know what it is gaining. But I heard speakers for half the price that I would far prefer. Thiel 1.2 ($1250): Disappointing, given all I've heard about them over the last year or two. A number of people report similar cases of disappointment. Again, it could be a taste thing, but it didn't pass a few of my acid tests (piano, vocals) for what I am calling naturalness and listenability. The bass was better than I had expected, but the listening room had been carefully tuned. I really wanted to like these speakers. Thiel 2.2 ($2250): A *totally* different matter. I think these would be well worth the cost -- definitely at least well-worth considering -- if you are looking for speakers in this range. They were nice through the *entire* range, had much better dynamics than the 1.2, and passed the natural/listenable tests. The bass was *very* tight and well-extended. These were probably the best speaker all-around that I listened to, although read about the B&W 803 Matrix below. A disadvantage is that you apparently need top-notch electronics to drive these beasts, which means even more money. PSB Stratus Gold ($2000): I liked this about as much as the 2.2. Again, this is a speaker that seems to have all the bases covered. If you are looking for a speaker in this price range, do try to find a PSB dealer. These are very nice. I'd have to compare them side-by-side with the 2.2 to say any more. As it stands, the room and the equipment used for the Gold audition were far inferior to that of the 2.2 audition, so it may not be saying anything important that these didn't impress me quite as much. PSB New Stratus ($1400): He didn't have one of these to demo, unfortunately. If it was close to the Gold in quality, I just might have bought it. Try to check it out. This is getting into the affordable range! PSB Stratus Mini ($850 w/o stands): If you are looking for a small speaker, this may be for you. Reasonable price and a very listenable midrange. They reminded me a bit of the Angelus in that they were simply pleasant to listen to, yet they did not lack detail. And like the Angelus, they aren't the ultimate in frequency range. The highs seemed a bit recessed to me, and the bass was somewhat lacking (although not too bad for the size). I bet they have a greater dynamic range than the Angelus. Before I decided on the Centaur Minors, I was definitely going to take this home for a further audition. Magneplanar 1.5 ($1350): I was a little disappointed with these. I am upgrading from the SMGa, and, as I said, one of the main reasons I am upgrading is because of a certain midrange annoyance. They are still quite detailed and good at imaging, and for $495 (now $575), they are a wonderful deal. I had high hopes for the 1.5, but it just didn't deliver. Whatever the midrange quality is that now disturbs me a little (after 3 years of perfectly happy ownership) seemed still to be present in this speaker. And the highs with the quasi-ribbon didn't seem much better than the SMGa. So these weren't the speaker for me. I still do heartily recommend the SMGa, however, for anyone looking for speakers in that price range who has the space for them. B&W 803 Matrix ($3300?): Wow. Due *only* to a lack of ultimate low-bass, maybe I can't say that this speaker has "all the bases covered", as I can with the Stratus Gold and the 2.2, but this was a very nice-sounding speaker. The imaging and soundstaging was perhaps better with this speaker than with any other I auditioned. When I put on "Neptune" from The Planets (Dutoit/Decca), the soft entrance of the muted trumpets made me sit up and take notice. They were clearly hanging in the air behind and to the left of the right speaker -- an effect that I had not heard before and did not hear hence. That left a strong impression on me, but I really didn't listen to these too much due to the price. B&W 804 Matrix ($2200): The dealer didn't have a pair of these on hand, but I have high hopes that these sound almost as good as the 803, due to my audition of the 805. I was seriously considering getting this speaker if I could find it at a reasonable price, but I never did. B&W 805 Matrix ($1600 w/o stands): My first reaction was amazement at how much of the 803 qualities were retained here. The imaging wasn't quite as good, but the sound was just so nice, just like the 803. I could listen to any of these Matrix speakers all day. This is an important quality for me, since I do a *lot* of listening. The bass is actually surprisingly good, as are the dynamics. Not great, but what do you expect for a speaker so small. If size is a factor and you had the money, seriously consider these. Celestion SL600si ($2000 w/o stands): Really, these are $1475 if you get them mail-order from Reference Audio in Gardena, CA. For that money, they do at least one thing very well -- imaging. They rivaled the Apogee Centaur Minor in that arena. The sound is very accurate and detailed, I thought. Quite impressive for such a small speaker. But it completely lacks bass. If size is important and imaging/accuracy is a high priority, consider these. I'm *very* curious to hear the 700, but may never do so. Apogee Centaur ($1600 w/o stands): The $150 optional stands are free through this month and maybe longer. I had a lot of fun auditioning these. The amount that I felt I could reach out and touch the performers was so high that it was almost at the novelty level. The highs were quite possibly the best of any speaker here, at least in terms of realism. I could see someone going in, trying these for a while, being extremely impressed, and slapping down the cash. Be careful. After about an hour, a certain quality of the cone driver started to get annoying. The upper bass sounded overbearing. Maybe it is an integration problem. I checked the back, and the ribbon switch was on "high" while the cone switch was on "low", so no relief there. This distubed me. I wanted so much to like it, but I couldn't overlook this problem that revealed itself after extended auditioning. I would much rather have one of the B&Ws, which, as I said, I could sit in front all day. I had some hope that it was the room. I really didn't want to give up that astonishing midrange and highs. Apogee Centaur Minor ($1200 w/o stands): The $150 stands are free through this month and maybe longer, and you probably want to get them. I had hopes that the cone problem described above might not be present in this speaker, which has the same ribbon, but a smaller cone. Indeed it was not. This time, there is no switch for the ribbon and a 3-position switch for the cone, and I purposely did the audition with the switch in the "high" position to see if I would become irritated. Everything seemed fine. I experimented with the switch, and the "low" position really made an unsubtle difference, so even if there was something that I didn't catch in my audition, that switch promises relief. I can't think of too much bad to say about this speaker. Well, there's not much bass. No surprise. But there was a minimal foundation. No worse than my current Maggies, which are quite good at bass for the money. I'm still a little nervous about potential integration problems that I didn't catch, but *after* my audition, I read the Stereophile review, and they had only praise for it. So that gave me some confidence in my judgement. One problem with this speaker and the Centaur is the bad vertical dispersion. When you stand up, you basically lose the ribbon (800Hz and up), so it sounds like a boomy clock radio or something. No cooking while listening with these! I decided to get the Centaur Minors. The only other serious candidate was the 804 Matrix, which I feel might have ended up being the more "listenable" speaker (as I said, one of my main priorities). Also, it would have better bass. However, there was a serious price hit with that one. This gives me more room to upgrade later, and I expect that I won't have too much trouble dumping the Minors used at a later date. Now, here are all the reponses I got to my original request for info about the Stratus Gold, 2.2, and other $2000 speakers. Double lines separate people. Single lines separate responses within a person. ============================================================================= If you like PSB, just wait 'till you hear Paradigms!! When I went speaker shopping (I'm in Canada) I listened to both PSB and Paradigm...I eventually bought a pair of Paradigm 7se. Go out, take a listen...I'd be interested to hear what you think of them! (I've never heard Spica Angelus, Vanderstein 2Ce, or Apogee Centaurus) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hmm...I started listening at the 7se level and up! The 3se and 5se just don't cut it...They're too small... the 7se was one of the most popular speakers ever in Canada...and not very expensive either...(I bought mine 2-3 years ago for CAN$385) They also sound much better in a fairly dead room (they have good dispersion...so the room reflections really muddle the sound!) >I wonder if you are thinking that I was talking about the other series >of PSB speakers (not the two Stratus speakers). They sound >significantly different -- not unlike the Paradigms in the same price >range. I am considering picking up a demo pair of the 40MkII, which is >being discontinued. (It sells for $440 new.) Yes, that is probably true...I have not been following the speaker models lately... >I thought the bass of the Paradigms was a little loose, but that is to >be expected at the price point. I prefer sins of ommission, which is >why I personally prefer the Celestion 5. But for my friend, who listens >to a lot of jazz, the PSB or Paradigm might be better. >From what I understand, the Paradigms tend to have a nominal resistance around 6 ohms (or so) even though they claim to be 8 ohm. Once again, the right amp makes a diffence. It *has* to be capable of driving low impedance loads... One time (for a party) we hooked my speakers up to a denon amp (100 w/side but it pulls ~300 w from the wall)... ugh...the bass was terrible, it was blurred and indistinct... At my insistence, we changed amps to my NAD 2150 (it claims 50 w/side but it pulls almost 400 w from the wall!!) Wow...instantly, clean bass...I couldn't believe it...neither could several other people. The difference in amps is audible. What sort of amps did you audition them with?? Yamaha?? Nad?? Rotel?? ...? >I would be surprised if Paradigm has a speaker that could compete with >the $2000 Stratus Golds, but I am open to the possibility. Well...take a look at the Paradigm export monitor line. Bi-ampable and (even) better sounding...but, pick your amp carefully. Older NAD is good, Bryston is fantastic (if you can afford it! ;-). I'd suggest that you listen to the Paradigms on several different amps...(which is what you should do with any speaker IMHO, including your own amp...I brought mine in when I was speaker hunting...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >I don't think I've heard the 7se. Maybe I should sometime. >I listened to the 5se and 3se with an Adcom 535II. But let me just say >that I am extremely sensitive to bass that is not completely tight. >Most people think the ones I listened to are sufficiently tight, I >think. Also, I wasn't listening in an optimal room -- not by a long >shot. It is nice to have the bass energy there, I agree. Drums, and bass guitar can really show sloppy bass in a very evident manner...even non-sensitve people will notice the blurring here! >I've been eager to hear a Bryston amp for some time, but I never have >had the opportunity. They're pretty nice...picture a big black box...audio in, power out... with 2 clip leds and a power switch... A 2B will dim your house lights in time to the beat! >doing some serious shopping here at the $2000 price point. Ouch...must be nice to have $2000 to spend on speakers!! ;-) Have fun... you may have to upgrade the rest of your system too though... (that is always the danger right??!!) ============================================================================= I read your post on rec.audio. Sounds like you've caught the audio- equipment-buying bug. From my experience, once you've got it, it's hard to shake! (The only cure may be to give your Adcom and Magnapans to your girlfriend, and replace 'em with something really awesome.) It's interesting that you weren't that impressed with the Thiel 1.2s. Melissa and I listened to them at the Audio Gallery. They were a bit too expensive, but I thought it would be worthwhile to listen to something just above our price point. Anyway, for Melissa the acid test is female vocal music, so the only thing we tried was Mozart Arias. The Thiels really didn't pass the test. The somewhat less expensive Epos speakers did; Melissa's observation was that on the Epos speakers Kiri Te Kanawa's (sp?) singing was absolutely effortless. ('Course with the Epos speakers there are other compromises -- limited dynamic range, modest bass extension, etc. Incidentally, you're welcome to come over and have a listen if you want. I could use some advice on setting them up.) Another friend of mine, who's taste I trust, thought the Theil 1.2s were very disappointing. Haven't heard the 2.2s though. From what you say, they sound like another story. I also recently stumbled across Audio Options. It is a great place, isn't it? I imagine I'll be spending a lot of money there in the coming months. When I went in, the big PSBs (I presume they were the Stratus Gold you were raving about) were pouring out the Strauss Four Last Songs. Wow! I *had* to sit down and listen, and was I impressed! Jesse Norman sounded wonderful. Her voice was soaring effortless above a deep beautiful orchestral background. These speakers reproduce music beautifully. Now I'm *not* in the market for speakers, but if I were... ============================================================================= >My initial impression is thus that shopping around the $2000 price point >can be a great revalation (unfortunately for my wallet). So far, I have >heard two speakers, and so far I have fallen in love with both of them. If >anyone else has heard either the PSB Stratus Golds or the Thiel 2.2, I >would be most interested in hearing your impressions. Also, I'd love to >hear recommendations for other good speakers at this price point. Chris, I have demo'ed every Thiel made. The only ones that made me seat were the 5.5s. Go listen to the Martin Logan Sequals. They are ESLs and have the most natural midrange of anything at any price. They go for about 2k also. I stopped looking for speakers and bought the Martin Logan Quests, which are the next model up from the Sequals. I run a pair of Adcom 565 monos for those beasts, with RG8-u coaxil runs of 20 inches / bi wired. My friend has a pair of wilson watts running on Krell power. He cries when he comes over to hear my setup. His costs 10k, mine costs 5k and sound much much more natural. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Your right, I meant the 5.0s, they go for around 9k. I have heard the 2.2s they are nice as long as you have superb electronics pushing them. That means very expensive MOSFET amps, or tubes. Try listening to Muse model 150s with the 2.2s. Thats the reason I shy'ed away from the Thiels. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >I have heard the 2.2s they are nice as long as you have superb > >electronics pushing them. > > This is valuable information for me. I have been wondering about this. > This will make me shy away from them, too. I would have thought the > Martin-Logans would be like this, too, but maybe not. Thanks for the > input. The MLs are much different in design. Being ESLs, allows them to have much less mass to deal with. Because of being an ESLs, they are not hampered by colorations that infest all dynamic designs. Think for a minute. Recorded music, (voice) is transmitted thru a mic, then to electronics. An ESL speaker is nothing more than a mic in reverse. ============================================================================= Well, since I've also been shopping for speakers, I thought you might like to hear some of the impressions that I've gotten. I've listened to: (brace for the list) :) Apogee Centaur Minor B&W DM640 B&W Matrix 803 Thiel CS 1.2 Thiel CS 2.2 Thiel CS 3.5 Tannoy Model 615 DCM Time Window 3 DCM TimeFrame 600 Canton Karat 980 Paradigm Studio Monitor Harmon Kardon 40 Infinity Kappa 7&8 Klipsch Forte II McIntosh XR230 Snell Type E/III NHT 2.3 Phase Technology PC8.5 Kef 103..... Whew!... Anyways, after about a month of critical and not so critical listening, I was able to narrow the speaker crowd to just a few: Apogee Centaur Minor ($1395) B&W DM640 ($1500) B&W Matrix 803 ($3300) Thiel CS 1.2 ($1290) Thiel CS 2.2 ($2290) Snell type E/iii ($990) I include the Apogee and Snell in this group, because I think they have the best overall sound for their price. The CS 1.2 I list because my local dealer will let me trade them at full value for the 2.2's within a year :)... much easier on the wallet. From what I've heard, I agree with all that you say about the 2.2. The B&W has a richer midrange owing mostly to larger drivers, but the 2.2 is more transparent in its presentation. Comparing the 2.2 and 3.5 was easy. The 3.5 gets a little more bass from an equalizer that they include with the speakers, but the overall sound is not nearly as musical as the 2.2. My local dealer said it best when he described the 2.2 as the most musical Thiel available, including the CS 5. Anyways, sorry about the audition list... I didn't realize that it had gotten that long. I haven't listend to the PSB Gold, so I'd appreciate it if you could compare them to the Thiel 2.2 for me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks... I'll try to check them out. BTW, where are the Thiels in Stereophile classifications? About the CS 5. They are perhaps the most accurate speaker I have ever heard, it's just that they aren't musical... :( ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is also out of your price range then, but I got a deal on a pair of Matrix 803 for $2400. I didn't take it, but they are still available. The little Adcom 535 is fairly low power, but they are supposed to be stable into 1 ohm, and have a fairly decent current output. Based on these two factors, it should do just fine. One thing that worries me about the Apogee, though. The crossover is listed as ~800 Hz. This corresponds to roughly the second 'A' above middle 'C.' That means that about 50-60% of the midrange is actually going to the woofer. This accounts for the slight hiccup that I heard when I auditioned these. The salesman said it was that the speaker wasn't fully burned in yet, and that maybe so, but having the crossover in the range where I am most sensitive (15 years of Clarinet/Sax) worries me. Actually, the 3 speakers that I am considering as 'finalists' are: Thiel (1.2 upgrade to 2.2) B&W Matrix 803 Apogee Centaur Minor Like you, I may end up with the minor because of the cost difference, but who knows for sure... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I know what you mean about the Centaur/ Centaur Minor. I also think the Minor sounds much better. The pair I listened to had been out of the box for about 3-5 hours, and the hiccup was a slight lack of sound in the crossover range. I was told by the salesman that when the speakers get fully burned in (50 hrs sugg. from Apogee) the crossover smooths out and you can't hear the dip. This is concurred by the review in Sterophile. The 803's are the store demo (they are still there). There's a slight worn side (where the black paint is rubbed off), but you can't see it unless you look for it. I got the same impression of the 803 as you did. Normally, it would be out of my price also, but... If you really want to consider them, I'll see what I can work out, but after adding shipping, it probably isn't worth the effort. ============================================================================= Well, I've never heard (or heard of) the PSB Stratus Gold, but I agree whole-heartedly regarding the Thiels. I first heard the CS3.5's about two to three years ago and was "blown away" (comparatively). I finally bought the CS2's about a year ago, and have been extremely pleased. In particular, I find them *far* superior to the Apogee Centaurs. I auditioned the CS2.2's a month or so ago and definitely thought they sounded better than my CS2's. Whether they actually sound better than the CS3.5's I don't know, but I wouldn't be at all surprised. Having upgraded my electronics over the last sixth months or so, I now consider my speakers to once again be the weak link, so I'm now considering upgrading my CS2's to the CS2.2's, or even to the replacement to the CS3.5 (when it comes out) -- much to my wallet's chagrin. :-) ============================================================================= Well, it started when this new little classical CD shop opened up -- the first decent place in Pittsburgh. He sold PSB speakers, too, and every time I went in there I couldn't help noticing how beautiful the PSB Stratus Gold sounded. He told me they were a Stereophile Class B speaker; I wasn't surprised. He told me that they were $2000; now I WAS surprised. Definitely not a bad sound -- far superior to a lot of speakers around the $1000 to $1500 range that I've heard. I've heard similar good things about the Stratus Gold and will definitely find a dealer to hear them Anyway, then he put on the Thiel 2.2. Good God! I think they match the Spica Angelus as far as "listenable midrange" goes -- a test that the 1.2 failed miserably. But they add so much more. Talk about tight extended bass! He put on a track from a Delos recording of Copland's Billy the Kid in which there was a lot of heavy bass drum action, and it sounded completely and utterly realistic to me. Granted, he was using top-flight electronics and the large room was filled with "Room Tune" devices, but it was a breathtaking demonstration of what the speakers are capable of. Same experience! I went to a shop that used VAC mono 90 amp and Esoteric CD (over $15,000 electronics) to drive the CS 2.2. The sound was astonishing for $2,200 speakers. I listened to CS 3.5 before. 3.5 has more punchy bass than the 2.2. But I felt 2.2's bass is better defined and has better highs, midrange and dynamics. Maybe the electronics made the difference. But that that was a very impressive demonstration. Other models you might want to look at: Apogee Stage($2400): only when well set up, touching dynamics and definition Snell C/IV($2200): excellent bass and soundstage, but lack of dynamics Vandersteen($2400): I never listened to If not out of your budget, Hales System 2($3000) and ProAc Response 2($3000) are both in a higher level than the above mentioned. ============================================================================= Just to add fuel to your listening pleasure. Try the Magnepan's. They have a speaker priced at $2000. Of course I am a Maggie owner. People who own Maggie's tend to be very devoted to them. You can listen to them for long periods of time without feeling fatigued. Maggies do not have a booming bass. The bass is there but it is not loud. The specs for Maggies say 34 Hz to 20KHz. Enjoy the music. ============================================================================= You might want to try the B&W804. Spile had a good review a few months ago. It lists at $2.2K, but you should be able to bargain your shop down a bit. It doesn't have any gut-wrenching bass, but the mids and highs are very sweet. ============================================================================= The 2.2s are wonderful speakers; I've listened to them quite a bit at the Audio Gallery. Take a listen to them with the Linn CD player and an ARC amp and preamp - the dynamics are amazing! The "problem" with Thiel speakers is that they are extermely revealing of the electronics and cabels behind them. They will ruthlessly uncover any flaws in your system which may be hidden by lesser speakers. What are you planning on using? I can't comment on the Angelus' performance; I've never had an opportunity to listen to them. What electronics did you have behind the 1.2s when you listened to them. I've owned a pair for almost a year and absolutely love them. In fact, I think their midrange is one of their strongest points. Right now I'm using a Creek 4140s2 and a (surprise!) Rotel 855. In the $2000 price range, you should really listen to the Apogee Stages. They sound very different than the 2.2s; you might like them, you might not. Depending on your room size, there are quite a few speakers worth listening to. ============================================================================= About a year ago I was on a quest for new speakers in your price range and ended up with the Paradigm Studio Monitors for $1750. Excellent bass, clarity and dynamics. Very smooth and listenable. However the imaging, while not at all bad, is nothing to get excited about. Several months later, I read about the PSB Stratus Golds in Stereophile. I was suprised to see a full range speaker this cheap in the class B recogmendations. Unfortunetly I've never had the chance to hear the PSBs. Have you heard the Paradigm Studios? How do they compare with the PSB Golds? Overall I'm really pleased with the Paradigms. I am wondering if my NAD amp is part of the shallow imaging problem. I have never seen a review of the Studios in Stereophile but I have seen them refer to NAD amps as having a shallow image. Do you think a different amp might help? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Oh. I just remembered something. A few months after I bought my my speakers, I was back at the store I bought them from; just looking around. They had built a new room just to put the Paradigms in. I walked into the room and couldn't believe the sound coming from the Studios that were playing. It had very good imaging! The amp/pre-amp was a Conrad Johnson tube amp and they were playing one of those Boston Acoustics sampler CD's. ============================================================================= I faced the same issue earlier this year. Due to stuff on rec.audio that stated that only 10% of the retail price of the speaker is spent on its manufacture, I decided to look around for factory direct speakers. I finally chose a company called Reel-to-Real Designs in Springfield, Ill (1800-283-4644). They make speakers ranging from $500 -$4400. The major difference from other speakers (in my humble non-golden-eared opinion) was the freq response of the Signature Series - 20-27K +- 2db. There is no need to use a subwoofer with these speakers. I spent summer of 91 listening to other speakers in the same and lower price ranges. Nothing came close, imho. On the downside, the lack of brand name recognition will make them hard to sell used without a demo. ============================================================================= I don't think either of your chosen speakers are available in the UK, however I know Celestion have a good name in the US and I can thoroughly recommend the Celestion ribbons, they make three, the 3000 (vinyl finish) the 5000 (walnut veneer), and the 7000 (walnut veneer floor standers). I don't know what the price on these in the US is, the 7000s I have are 1335 Pounds in the UK and worth every penny. If you are looking for midrange you will find it very hard to beat these, they are simply the most stunning speaker I heard which had the pace of MC box speakers and a transparency only found with ribbons and electrostatics normally. Imaging is so good that 3D recordings come across fantastically. They don't lack much in the bass either, the 3 and 5000s have one 8" driver, the 7000s have two. One word of warning, they really only sound good with VERY expensive Valve amps, I know in the US the usual thinking if the sound is bad is to get better speakers but in the UK we don't work that way, you must have very good amplification to hear these at their best, I have only once heard these demo'ed well, every other time they were terrible. They can go very loud without distortion which is quite surprising too but are extremely directional, a nice wide hot spot but limited vertically so you can hardly hear the treble if you stand up and the soundstage collapses. Even so, they were described in one review as taking the quality of reproduction from a box speaker (as opposed to a planar) to a level frighteningly high compared with all others around for the money. I have to agree, but again they are also a serious tweaky speaker and will not respond well to just being plugged into a system. ============================================================================= Have you tried the TDL Studio range. I'm not sure which would come to your $2000 US budget, but in the UK the Studio 4 is 1500 pounds. They are transmission line speakers and if I had a 1500 pound budget they would be my first choice. (If I had 5000 pounds they would still be my first choice). ============================================================================= If you can up your price just a bit, I'll plug the Mirage M-3 speakers. I've had a pair for nearly 2 years and love 'em. They're bipolar, so you get a very nice open sound, somewhat similar to a dipole speaker (ribbons or electrostatics) without the liabilites of dipoles (no low bass). These babies definitely have plenty of low bass capability - down to 25 Hz. Take a listen if you can find a pair locally. Interestingly, I have some connections between Mirage & both Thiel and PSB (mentally, that is). PSB because Mirage also is one of those Canadian manufacturers who've used the resources of the Canadian National Research Council's acoustics lab, which is run by Floyd Toole. Others are Paradigm, Energy, ESS, can't remember 'em all. Thiel b/c the store where I purchased the M-3's used to sell Thiel and dumped 'em b/c they said they weren't sturdy enough. I was mad for a few years after that, b/c I loved the 3.5 and wanted to buy a pair eventually. They were about the same price as the M-3's and it wasn't until I heard the Mirages that I forgave them. BTW, the Mirages look beautiful, but be careful - recently Mirage shipped a few pairs with a really tacky-looking formica surface glued on top of the black lacquer finish. That didn't last long, but there may be a few of these floating around. Oh, Guy Lemcoe of Stereophile has a pair and comments about them now and then, and there was a very positive review about a year ago. If you have access to back issues of Stereophile, worth looking up. ============================================================================= >Apprently, no reviews of these speakers have yet been done, but the dealer >tells me that they are superior to the Thiel 3.5 (which I have never >heard). Check Audio magazine, I believe an issue either in late 1991 or early 1992 has a review on PSB. In fact the cover of that issue is a picture of the PSB Gold. The review gave a high rating to the speakers. ============================================================================= If you could forward me answers to your question about speakers in the $2000 range, I'd very much appreciate it. (Or post to list.) I recently heard the 2.2s and they are indeed very nice. I bought 1.2s, not being able to afford the 2.2s at this point, but I may well trade up in a year. Thanks! ============================================================================= The 3.5 was inferior to the old CS2.0 too. It's not surprising that the new 2.2 betters it. ============================================================================= I would listen to the Snell C/IV, also a Stereophile class B speaker. It lists for about the same as the Thiel 2.2. However, I think that this speaker will only make your decision harder as it is a terrific sounding speaker, as are the others that you have auditioned. Another speaker which I haven't listened to but got a good review in TAS (The Absolute Sound) is the NEAR 50M. This is a full-range dynamic speaker that lists for $1500. ============================================================================= I would be very interested to know your reaction to the $2400 B&W 804's, in comparison with the speakers reported in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Actually, the 804's are $2200, and I bought a pair for the bedroom system, where the small footprint was a real plus. (Also, the tweater is just at ear level when lying in bed with my head proped up on pillows.) I doubt that you'll find a used pair, since they're relatively new to the market. My local dealer had stopped stocking the 803's, since everyone who compared the 803's and 804's ended up buying the latter. I also have some 801's in the living room (see the pattern?). The 801's are driven by a Bryston 4B power amp at 250 wpc. The 804's are driven by a Bryston 2B at 50 wpc. Both are biwired. I really like the sound of both systems; they sound a lot alike -- good bass, clarity, real sounding human voices, good imaging, satisfying impact. I listen exclusively to CD's, with program material varying from classic rock (Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Stones) to chamber music, piano, opera, and symphonic. The 804's certainly don't seem bass shy, thought the 801's can really rattle your soul and are preferred for Pink Floyd. I've listened quite a bit to the Vandersteen 2c's at the same dealer. The 804's are much better to my ear (but they also cost twice as much). I've always thought the various 2c's sounded muddy and unclear compared to the B&W 80x's. Indeed, I'd buy Spendor's instead of a Vandersteen's at the same price. I tried using the new Adcom amps with the 804's. They made a bad sounding system -- somehow everything lost its warmth and realness. Piano, especially, began to sound more like a synthesizer. The Bryston amps have a lot of punch and sound clear, real, and warm with these speakers. These amps also are also extremely reliable and have a transferrable 20 year warranty. I was hoping to hear your comparisons of 804's with other speakers that I had not heard yet, just to keep up with what's available. After all, one can always make a trade if something significantly better comes along. I was especially interested in how the 804's would compare with the Thiel's, speakers that I've never heard but that have a good reputation. ============================================================================= my favourite speaker to date: Vandersteen 3's (~$2495) a close second: PSB Gold I haven't heard the new 2.2 theil's but was not too impressed with the older version